i hope this thread can be a compilation of all the changes made.
it could serves as a good reference for those who want to help the loved ones to wake up.
please list down here all your findings if you don't mind.
For a start:
Adam no longer "came to be a living soul" [Gen 2:7]
Now
He "became a living person" [NNWT]
On the one hand, one may argue that the NNWT has "clarified" the meaning of "nephesh" by rendering it in various ways such as "soul" "life" "person" while in a contrary view it could also be argued that the NNWT is no long literal and consistent.
a jw wrote the following in an attempt to discredit the evidence provided by vat 4956. comments on the author's logic would be appreciated.
does vat 4956 prove 587?.
many point to vat 4956 as proof that jerusalem was desolated in 587bce.
Great work, as usual AOM. I believe that the premise on which this poster based his/her conclusions is a false one. And this is that if an archeological document is a copy of an original then it must be questioned for its authenticity and, based on conclusions that defy any quantifiable logical analysis, should rightly be discredited. On this basis, however, one can question anything, even a round earth, and making false conclusions from such questioning, one can discredit the accepted position by scholars that science proves the earth circular, not flat.
In order for an ancient artifact to be discredited it must be done on the basis of verifiable data that is accessible to all, and not a select few. To really discredit VAT 4956 we need such verifiable data. But all we have been given is artificially rigged questions that then lead to false conclusions which themselves are without any factual basis. What this poster is obviously doing is proving something that he/she has already assumed to be true, and from this he/she builds a theme.
The only REAL way to discredit VAT 4956 is to produce a genuine archaeological tablet with the exact same celestial phenomena mentioned in VAT 4956, but instead, attributing it to the year 625 BC!! THEN and only THEN can the Watchtower and it apologists ARGUE THEIR CASE. In the absence of such data they are what Aussies call "all piss and wind".
Can we verify whether an astronomical tablet is a fake or at least if its data has been corrupted? Yes, as you pointed out, astomomical phenomena which has been recorded, verified, and attributed, becomes absolute, hence the expression "absolute date". Carl Olof Jonsson does provide one such example of a corrupted astronomical tablet.
The Watchtower, in an attempt to verify the date 537 BCE as the date for the Jewish return to Judah, have often quoted an astronomical document catalogued as "Strm. Kambys. 400" now residing in the Berlin Museum, I believe. It details celestial phenomena which is attributed to the seventh year of Cambyses, the son of Cyrus. The Insight book volume 1, page 453 approves of this document and says:
"Thus this tablet establishes the seventh year of Cambyses as beginning in the year 523 BCE. This is an astronomically confirmed date"
Jonsson states:
"If the society's criticism of such documents as VAT 4956 are valid mainly because it is a later copy of an original, then such criticism would apply with equal force to their own favoured document, the Strm. Kambys 400".
He points out that as early as 1903 scholars such as one FX Kugler have pointed out that this document is a copy of a text that can be verified as defective. Indeed the copyist, having many gaps in the original, filled in these gaps [called "lacunae"] with his own sloppy calculations!! Jonsson quotes Kugler as saying:
"Not one of the astronomical texts I know of offers so many contradictions and unsolved riddles such as the Strm. Kambys 400"
Thus for a tablet to be true it must be:
Recorded. Verifiable. Attributed.
The problem with Strm. Kambys 400 is that although it has been recorded and attributed to a certain year, only a small fraction of the data is verifiable. Much of the celestial phenomena, including the lunar eclipses quoted by the Insight book are private calculations of the copyist hence are NOT verifiable!
[Taken from "Gentile Times Revisited - 4th Edition page 85 ff]
To defend an indefensible astronomical position the Watchtower [and its apologists] indulge in a curious blend of conjecture and double standards. Until verifiable astronomical data can be shown to prove VAT 4956 to be false, it must be held in the higest regard that it so richly deserves.
i have a question about the historical development of the doctrine currently held by the watchtower, specifically about jesus being michael.
i am not interested in a polemic about whether jesus is or is not michael, but rather in how this teaching evolved in the historical development of the watchtower movement.
for instance we know that at least as far back as november 1879, page 4, [reprints page 48] the watchtower was teaching a doctrine contrary to what it currently teaches:.
Yes I believe so.
Remember that the square brackets in that 1879 quote are Russell's words not mine. Like Arius, CTR was a "homoiousion" believer where he posited the notion that, in having a nature which was "like" God, it was also UNlike that of angels. So Jesus was in some way HIGHER than angels but lower than God.
At some time in the historical and doctrinal development of the Watchtower however, which is the point of this post, Jesus was adjudged to be "UNlike" God and "like" the angels [a teaching historically referred to as "anomoism"]. Thus, from being "higher" than angels, the estimation of Jesus slided down to being on their level. I suspect that Rutherford had something to do with this.
From being like God, to being the same as angels is quite a plunge is it not?
But when did this radical change occur?
i have a question about the historical development of the doctrine currently held by the watchtower, specifically about jesus being michael.
i am not interested in a polemic about whether jesus is or is not michael, but rather in how this teaching evolved in the historical development of the watchtower movement.
for instance we know that at least as far back as november 1879, page 4, [reprints page 48] the watchtower was teaching a doctrine contrary to what it currently teaches:.
I have a question about the historical development of the doctrine currently held by the Watchtower, specifically about Jesus being Michael. I am not interested in a polemic about whether Jesus is or is not Michael, but rather in how this teaching evolved in the historical development of the Watchtower movement.
For instance we know that at least as far back as November 1879, page 4, [reprints page 48] the Watchtower was teaching a doctrine contrary to what it currently teaches:
"Jesus' position is contrasted with that of men and angels, since he is Lord of both. Hence it is said , "Let ALL angels of God worship him; [that must include Michael the archangel, hence Michael is NOT the Son of God] and the reason is that he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent NAME than they"
So Russell appears to be an Arian in the classic sense of the word, but somewhere between then and now something changed and the Christology of the Watchtower plunged even lower, equating Him with an angel, an archangel, no less . The question is:
When did this first happen?
i am going to be speaking to the 45-55 years old plus generation here.
i bought my first copy around 1980, it was the thing to do because it proved most of christendom's believes came from nimrod, and by the end of the 1980s the book and the name faded away into oblivion.. .
the watchtower use to print that book or distribute it, am i correct or has my memory gotten bad?
You are probably referring to RALPH Woodrow a famous Evangelical preacher who once espoused the opinions of Hislop from his book the "Two Babylons" but who later retracted his statements. As far as I know he has no connection to the Watchtower.
I was around in the 50s, 60s and 70s when the Watchtower regularly quoted Hislop's book, but only selectively and with scant regard for Hislop's thesis. It was obvious that the writers of Watchtower material had not actually taken the trouble to read the work. This is not unusual since it is weighty, often contradictory, mixing fact with opinion, and largely bigotted in its conclusions.
As far as I can recall, the only occasions when the Watchtower quoted Hislop were to prove:
1. That the Cross was pagan
[Which is something that Hislop did not conclude. His stated opinion was that the CRUCIFIX of the RCs was. The RCs, like the Watchtower, still depict Christ on his instrument of death, revealing a theology that subscribes to the RC position that the redemptive work of Christ is still operative and that devotees must somehow accomplish works to acquire the distinctive formula for salvation.
His point, now considered more opinionated than factual, was that the RC Crucifix was derived from the Egyptian Crux Ansata, which was portrayed as a a T form with a round top, evidently depicting someone's head. It did not. It was merely a handle. The Egyptian crux also showed two lines extending from the upright post to the arms of the T thus showing someoine's arms. This to Hislop was a picture of Christ still on the cross.
Evangelicals on the other hand believe explicitly that when Jesus said "It is finished" that His work was complete. Thus they always display an EMPTY Cross. Hislop's point was that the RCs, and not Christians wholesale were "pagan".
The inability to distinguish the two was a point of ignorance on the part of Watchtower writers and not one of agreement]
2. That the Trinity was "pagan"
[Again, this is not true, since Hislop was himself a Trinitarian. His point, when carefully read, would show that he was arguing that the DEPICTIONS of the Trinity such as triangles, three headed gods, arcs, curlicues, and so on, were Egyptian in Origin, although Hislop was probably rather far fetched in his conclusions. ]
3. That Christmas Day was "pagan":
[Oddly enough Hislop did not use the Roman Saturnalia to prove this point, which would have had more historical value as a point of argument. He chose rather to stress the point that Nimrod, the great bogey man of Watchtower myth, was born on this day. As later scholars would show this is an idiosyncratic opinion which has no historical basis whatever.]
The Watchtower pulled any further reference to Hislop sometime in the late 70s, probably because someone may have pointed out that their references to him, and their quotes of him were ill considered.
i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.
by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).
where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?
Hi Tammy, no disrespect was taken, truly.
I understand what you're on about, but remember you are writing from a different perspective from what I was intending. You are writing from a position of Christian certitude, based on theological verities, which is a point of view that I share. But I was attempting to reach others who do not perhaps have this certainty.
Remember to most people on forums such as this, concepts such as "hearing the voice of the Lord" are alien, and are seen as tending to dogmatism rather than on a rationalism that is dependent of other points of view. If you were writing for your own Church paper the above is what you would write, but in an open forum where different views are openly expressed, you need, while holding to "the pattern of sound teaching", a differrent approach.
Of course a Christian DOES know for certain. But this is predicated on an assumption that all Christians make. That Christ IS the source of Truth, indeed He is truth. But how do you reach someone who does not make such an assumption in the first place? Remember this is not a forum for theology or for pressing a particular point of doctrinal persuasion, so we cannot assume Christian verities to be universally accepted.
My point of course was that of impirical knowledge. A knowledge that is verifiable from impirical, or physical evidence.
We know for instance, that a corpse is dead. By physical evidence we can discover the cause of death, the time of death, and we can garner a basic degree of knowledge about the lifestyle of the person while alive. These are truths that are verifiable, and confirmed by the evidence that is without bias, available to all.
But where is that person now? What happened to him at the moment of death?
You may believe that you know for certain, because the "Lord told you". But that is not impirically verifiable. It is a revelation, and you must first assume that that revelation is True, which is an assumption others won't make.
So, whether or not animals have souls, cannot be known by impirical knowledge. It can only come from revelation. But what revelation? Buddhist revelation suggets that they do, as does Hindu revelation. My point was that the biblical revelation is unclear, and for complete verifiable proof, we will have to await the time when, in glory, we will be told.
i know most jehovah's witnesses believe in the soul sleeping doctrine.
by this, given that neither man nor beast has a spirit, but that they do possess souls (or "intelligences" unique to themselves).
where this intelligence resides between death and resurrection is more than a passing interest, but again, assuming that yehweh can recreate one's distict soul, does the society believe that animals have souls?
You're right. Your question cannot be answered definitively, at least not at this time and in our current state of understanding. The limits of human wisdom preclude the making of any categorical statement one way or other. We are left but to speculate, wonder, and believe. But belief itself is a product of having faith, which itself is defined as "being certain of that which we cannot see". [Heb 11:1 NIV]
We must therefore depend, if we want to have faith, on revelation. If you are oriented to Christianity, the source of that revelation is the Bible. Evidently however the Bible does not want us to know things which we cannot see, because if we knew for certain it would by logic cancel out the need for faith.
The Bible , is either deliberately or otherwise, too vague, or ambiguous, or even subject to a myriad different interpretive conclusions, that one will find onself miserably locked into a maze of conflicting values if one ponders a question such as this. The two parts of the Bible are already locked into their own separate theolgcal matrix and the condition of animal life is left unstated. The OT is concerned about the relationship of the nation of Israel and its descendants to their God Yahweh, while the NT deals with the issue of sin and reconcilliation back to God through the blood of Christ. No mention of Tabby or Trigger anywhere in either hemisphere of the Bible.
But there are tantalizing clues. For instance we know that animals are CALLED souls, but do they also HAVE souls? Dunno. However there is a text at Prov 12:10, where Freddy Franz translated the NWT to read:
"The righteous man is caring for the soul OF his domestic animal"
The genetive here evidently indicates possession, so that the "of" implies that domestic beasts, at least, appear to HAVE a soul. However, as I said, this is a minefield of interpretive impulses and is subject to endless debate.
Does "soul" here mean "life" only? According to the NASV Bible the answer is Yes. Can the word "soul" here [Hebrew "Nephesh"] simply mean the physical needs of the animal? According to the NIV, the answer is Yes. [The righteous man tends to the NEEDS of his animal - NIV]
And so on.
What then do we believe? That is what the root of our humanity is, and not what we know or want to know. Personally, as a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist, I believe that only domestic pets who are smarter than their owners will live with them forever in the eventual heavenly Paradise.
Which means that Moogy my cat is a shoo in. She's so smart that she has mastered the "fetch" command. When she wants something she gets me to fetch it.
well have they?
given that 'we are all imperfect and fall down many times' one would expect them to have made at least some mistakes since rutherford founded the jw religion.
as christians are supposed to be humble, including those who 'would be great among you', should we not have seen evidence of this over such a long time period?.
No.
how would our world today be different if the males.
became pregnant.
let's suppose the creator (who ever.
Well for a start, if males were the ones to fall pregnant, the condom would have been invented before the wheel.
Cheers.
Ta, mate
